Los Angeles Congress
MAYAN GIRL
I (and thousands of other Catholics) went to Anaheim this weekend for the
Los Angeles Congress, the largest religious education conference in the
world. It was the best thing I've been to in a *long* time.
There were a few conservatives there protesting the discussions on the
Common Ground Initiative (Fr. Richard Fragomeni talked about it). (Their
flyer only singled out two people, one being Diana Hayes.) I was told
there are usually liberal pickets as well but they didn't show up this
year.
Some of my personal highlights:
*Celtic Liturgy- Gospel was given in Irish, Celtic sounding music,
dancers. (I don't usually care for the dancing, but I must say it was
done very well at all liturgies.)
*African-American Liturgy-drums, great music, dancers, good homily (and
very traditional). The Cardinal showed up to this one as did everyone
else; the arena was jammed.
*Dr. Greer Gordon (faculty at Regis College, MA) It is always a joy to
listen to Dr. Gordon. Topics: Hope and Preserving the Servent.
*Carole Eipers (Archdiocese of Chicago) Topic: Adult Spirituality.
*Fr. Robert Hater (Prof. of Religious Studies at U. of Dayton, OH) Topic:
Witnessing to Jesus in a Rapidly Changing Society.
*Ronald Krietemeyer. Topic: Hearing the Cries of the Poor.
Those were the better workshops I went to. It was dificult to chose as
there were over 20 workshops per period (9 periods from Fri-Sat). There
were concerts and I got to see Fr. Liam Lawton (an Irishman) perform as
well as a homegrown Celtic group; Sue Ann Pinner whom I didn't care for;
I missed Marty Haugen's "Song of Mark" and the showing of the Dorothy Day
movie.
Did anyone else around here make it? Has anyone heard anything about it
(did Mother Angelica say anything?). I know the conservatives will bash
it but I'd like to know what is being said.
Laura
p/s I got to go to the Museum of Tolerance for the first time. The
interactive museum at the Simon Weisenthal Center is dedicated to
remembering the Holocaust and other atrocities we commit against each
other. Their current special exhibit was on the LA riots following the
Rodney King verdict (and one on Rwanda). Very moving and worthwhile.
Edward Thorne
In <19970218022...@ladder01.news.aol.com> maya...@aol.com
(MAYAN GIRL) writes:
[SNIP]
>
>Some of my personal highlights:
>*Celtic Liturgy- Gospel was given in Irish, Celtic sounding music,
>dancers. (I don't usually care for the dancing, but I must say it was
>done very well at all liturgies.)
>*African-American Liturgy-drums, great music, dancers, good homily
(and
>very traditional).
There was dancing at Mass??? Isn't that against liturgical norms? Can
some one verify that?
[SNIP]
MAYAN GIRL
<<< No Message Collected >>>
Edward Thorne
In <19970219132...@ladder01.news.aol.com> maya...@aol.com
(MAYAN GIRL) writes:
>eth...@ix.netcom.com(Edward Thorne) writes:
>
>In <19970218022...@ladder01.news.aol.com> maya...@aol.com
>(MAYAN GIRL) writes:
>
>[SNIP]
>
>>
Can
>>some one verify that?
>
>dancers. Liturgy of the Dance, right? There's even a liturgy of the
>Mime. (Go figure.)
>
>Laura
>
Well, I am not sure that I understand. Was dancing performed during
the Mass?
"Days of penance have come to us that we may redeem our sins and save
our souls."
Ut unum simus
Ed
mayangirl
In article <5egbke$c...@dfw-ixnews6.ix.netcom.com>,
eth...@ix.netcom.com(Edward Thorne) wrote:
> Well, I am not sure that I understand. Was dancing performed during
> the Mass?
They danced as they brought the gifts up and got the altar ready. They
also danced as the procession started into the conference room.
Laura
Edward Thorne
In <mayangrl-230...@ig204.innovation.com> maya...@metro.net
And was this dancing before mass or during the procession at the
offertory?
mayangirl
In article <5er1oe$q...@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com>,
eth...@ix.netcom.com(Edward Thorne) wrote:
>
> And was this dancing before mass or during the procession at the
> offertory?
>
Both.
Edward Thorne
In <mayangrl-240...@ig152.innovation.com> maya...@metro.net
Ohhh....that is not good.
As far as I know, liturgical norms prohibit dancing during the mass
itself.
tara...@aol.com
When are the ex-hippies goin have the drum solo from
Iron Butterfly's In-a-gadda-da-vida incorporated into the
Mass?
Yep - any movement at all is now defined as dance.
Even the Mass is a dance. That's what I was told.
Stand up! Sit down! Stand up! Kneel!
See - Liturgical dance. That's what they say.
How convenient.
When is anyone going to be sensitive to those of us
that want the basic Mass without additions, subtractions
or alteration, and put the Latin back in where required
by Vatican II? I find no tolerance to such ideas.
When are they going to ever sing the Star Spangled Banner
at a ball game the way the tune was written - without the
theatrical so-called artistic note extrapolations? It's
disgusting what they do.
If the Mass is a dance, then let's see it conform to the
way it was correographed.
Some of us don't go for the showmanship or sport
doncha know. We go there looking to get closer to
Jesus and we get some dog and pony show -
supposedly as a bonus. Hah!
It's a sin not to go to Mass. It's a sin to go to Mass and
get distracted and angry over all the license and friviolotry.
I wonder if one could get a dispensation from Sunday Mass,
where all this stuff goes on, if one goes at least twice a
week to the daily, where the stunts are absent.
tara...@aol.com
MAYAN GIRL
eth...@ix.netcom.com(Edward Thorne) writes:
In <mayangrl-240...@ig152.innovation.com> maya...@metro.net
(mayangirl) writes:
>
>In article <5er1oe$q...@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com>,
>eth...@ix.netcom.com(Edward Thorne) wrote:
>
>
>>
>> And was this dancing before mass or during the procession at the
>> offertory?
>>
>
>Both.
:Ohhh....that is not good.
:As far as I know, liturgical norms prohibit dancing during the mass
:itself.
But what of Liturgy of the Dance? Or Mime? At what point in the mass are
they ok?
Laura
MAYAN GIRL
tara...@aol.com writes:
>When is anyone going to be sensitive to those of us
that want the basic Mass without additions, subtractions
or alteration, and put the Latin back in where required
>by Vatican II? I find no tolerance to such ideas.
>Some of us don't go for the showmanship or sport
doncha know. We go there looking to get closer to
>Jesus and we get some dog and pony show -
>supposedly as a bonus. Hah!
Well, if you're interested, St. Patrick's in New Orleans has a Latin mass,
communion rail and whatever else used to be the norm (maybe the priest
still faces away from the congregation too). A friend has been there a
few times when visiting N.O. (because her husband insists). You could go
T., and be there with the handful of old men who attend. My question is,
what's going to happen when they all die off?
Laura
tara...@aol.com
TEST
I posted that post several days ago and it finally shows up and
then it shows up with the wrong date and three times!
Is it time for AOL to change their name to America Off Line
or ???
Wed 2-26 4:15pm - clocks ticking on this one.
tara...@aol.com
Thanks for the suggestion, however---
1) New Orleans is too far away
2) I'm not after a tridentine Mass (never been to one - although
I hear that there is one in a Baltimore parish.
I see nothing wrong with the Novus Ordo.
What is so wrong about having the lectors - regardless of the language
that they are reading in - say "Verbum Domini" and the people respond
"Deo Gratias"? And after the priest or deacon reads the Gospel he says,
"Verbum Domini" and the response "Laus tibi, Christe"??? Huh? Huh?
What would be wrong with that? Is that so controversial? What's wrong
with saying the Agnus Dei in Latin?? Are we not one Church?
What would such actions be such a big threat too? HUH?
Can we all, English, Spanish & Vietmanese get together for Mass and
KNOW what is going on?
I'm sorry, I go to Mass looking to get closer to Jesus.
I do not go to Mass for a dog and pony show. Women in leotards
don't belong at Mass - let alone doing a dance. PERIOD.
It is flat out wrong, wrong, WRONG!! Perhaps the fact that people
cannot contain themselves in their ribaldry is a statement of the
condition of souls today. The Mass is not some parade, ball game,
adventure movie or half-time show. Perhaps not rightly discerning
spiritual things is profanity.
MAYAN GIRL
tara...@aol.com writes:
>What would be wrong with that? Is that so controversial? What's wrong
>with saying the Agnus Dei in Latin??
But why? Because its tradition? It doesn't meake me feel any closer to
God.
> Are we not one Church?
>What would such actions be such a big threat too? HUH?
Can we all, English, Spanish & Vietmanese get together for Mass and
>KNOW what is going on?
We still wouldn't really know what was going on unless it was all in Latin
(according to your argument). I wouldn't understand the gospel in
Vietnamese.
>I'm sorry, I go to Mass looking to get closer to Jesus.
I do not go to Mass for a dog and pony show. Women in leotards
>don't belong at Mass - let alone doing a dance. PERIOD.
>It is flat out wrong, wrong, WRONG!!
But who ok'd it? (The same with the "Liturgy of the Mime.")
And BTW, they weren't in leotards.
Laura
Edward Thorne
In <19970226064...@ladder02.news.aol.com> maya...@aol.com
(MAYAN GIRL) writes:
>
>eth...@ix.netcom.com(Edward Thorne) writes:
>
>In <mayangrl-240...@ig152.innovation.com> maya...@metro.net
>(mayangirl) writes:
>>
>>In article <5er1oe$q...@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com>,
>>eth...@ix.netcom.com(Edward Thorne) wrote:
>>
Now, I have more information in the Los Angeles Conference.
The conference seminars were pretty good in that they did not deviate
from the church's magisterium, nor did the speakers make any snide
references to the Cardinal's guidelines.
But the liturgy was, well ...
The cardinal tried to recite a prayer to the beat of drums.
References to God were either gender-neutral or feminine.
The DRE told the catechists in attendance that they must look for new
ways of "birthing new ministerial models in the church," and of
"trying to forgive when there is no response" to their attempts to
change the church's ministerial roles.
The closing mass included liturgical dancers but no crucifix.
The Cardinal from Korea said during the conference that "people in Los
Angeles are open to new things."
Even though there was a lot of talk about the Common Ground, the ground
wasn't big enough or common enough for representitives from St Joseph's
Communications, who were using display space provided by Ignatius
Press.
The conference organizer was heard threatening to ban Ignatius Press
next year for letting St Joseph Comm use some of its space.
Conference attendees also received some muddled instruction concerning
the church's teaching on homosexuality and distribution of condoms.
And speaking of Common Ground, that only common ground which it is
appropriate for Catholics to stand on is that representated by the
Catechism of the Catholic Church.
Edward Thorne
In <19970226064...@ladder02.news.aol.com> maya...@aol.com
(MAYAN GIRL) writes:
>
>eth...@ix.netcom.com(Edward Thorne) writes:
>
>In <mayangrl-240...@ig152.innovation.com> maya...@metro.net
>(mayangirl) writes:
>>
>>In article <5er1oe$q...@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com>,
>>eth...@ix.netcom.com(Edward Thorne) wrote:
>>
>>
>>>
>>> offertory?
>>>
>>
>>Both.
>
>:Ohhh....that is not good.
>
>:As far as I know, liturgical norms prohibit dancing during the mass
>:itself.
>
>But what of Liturgy of the Dance? Or Mime? At what point in the mass
are
>they ok?
>
>Laura
>
>
mayangirl
In article <5f742u$h...@sjx-ixn7.ix.netcom.com>,
eth...@ix.netcom.com(Edward Thorne) wrote:
> Now, I have more information in the Los Angeles Conference.
[snipped]
Where did your info come from?
> But the liturgy was, well ...
>
> The cardinal tried to recite a prayer to the beat of drums.
That would have been done in one Liturgy- The African-American one. But
I don't remember that...
>
> References to God were either gender-neutral or feminine.
Not at the liturgies I was at.
>
> The DRE told the catechists in attendance that they must look for new
> ways of "birthing new ministerial models in the church," and of
> "trying to forgive when there is no response" to their attempts to
> change the church's ministerial roles.
True.
> The closing mass included liturgical dancers but no crucifix.
Don't know, as I didn't attend. But there was no crucifix the whole
weekend, just a plain white cross.
> The Cardinal from Korea said during the conference that "people in Los
> Angeles are open to new things."
People came from all over the USA and the world. It is the largest
religious ed conference in the owrld.
Laura
--
Please note new address
Edward Thorne
In <mayangrl-280...@d218.pm6.sonic.net> maya...@sonic.net
(mayangirl) writes:
>
>In article <5f742u$h...@sjx-ixn7.ix.netcom.com>,
>eth...@ix.netcom.com(Edward Thorne) wrote:
>
>
>> Now, I have more information in the Los Angeles Conference.
>[snipped]
>
>Where did your info come from?
The weekly Catholic newspaper called The Wanderer.
[SNIP]
Stephanie Rendino
In article <mayangrl-230...@ig204.innovation.com>,
mayangirl <maya...@metro.net> wrote:
>In article <5egbke$c...@dfw-ixnews6.ix.netcom.com>,
>eth...@ix.netcom.com(Edward Thorne) wrote:
>
>
>> Well, I am not sure that I understand. Was dancing performed during
>> the Mass?
>
>They danced as they brought the gifts up and got the altar ready. They
>also danced as the procession started into the conference room.
I've seen liturgical dance done just before the reading of the Gospel as
well. It's a physical expression of praise, done correctly.
tara...@aol.com
>
>tara...@aol.com writes:
>
>>What would be wrong with that? Is that so controversial? What's wrong
>>with saying the Agnus Dei in Latin??
>
>But why? Because its tradition? It doesn't meake me feel any closer to
>God.
>
But why not? Not necessarily because it's tradition, but because it's
the right thing to do.
>> Are we not one Church?
>>What would such actions be such a big threat too? HUH?
>Can we all, English, Spanish & Vietmanese get together for Mass and
>>KNOW what is going on?
>
>We still wouldn't really know what was going on unless it was all in Latin
>(according to your argument). I wouldn't understand the gospel in
>Vietnamese.
No, it doesn't have to be all in Latin - I don't know Latin. But it sure
would be nice if the Spanish and Vietnamese lectors would finish
with "Verbum Domini" so we could all know where we are - or would
you prefer the English?
>>I'm sorry, I go to Mass looking to get closer to Jesus.
>I do not go to Mass for a dog and pony show. Women in leotards
>>don't belong at Mass - let alone doing a dance. PERIOD.
>>It is flat out wrong, wrong, WRONG!!
>
>But who ok'd it? (The same with the "Liturgy of the Mime.")
Some "liturgist" with a degree no doubt. It's not what you know, it's
what you show. It's the new "educated" pedantry.
>And BTW, they weren't in leotards.
>
>Laura
That's okay. Try Marywood in Grand Rapids Michigan next time you're
near there. Women in leotards "dancing" as the priest walks up.
And if you can find the tabernacle in less than 10 minutes you are
doing really great. (Hints: it's wooden, on a pole sticking out of
a wall, and it's a "room" off to the side that resembles a terrarium)
I've seen what dog and pony shows lead too.
I don't think Jesus is amused having them at Mass.
Tarasius
Edward Thorne
In <5faf7k$n...@stratus.CAM.ORG> be...@CAM.ORG (Stephanie Rendino)
writes:
To do liturgical dance correctly means that it is done before Mass. To
do it just before the Gospel means that it is being done within mass.
I believe that that is a no-no, liturgically.
Bishops and priests have no right to change the Mass without
authorization. The Mass belongs to the people and individual
celebrants have no right to change it based on their personal whims.
Stephanie Rendino
In article <5evj1t$l...@dfw-ixnews9.ix.netcom.com>,
Edward Thorne <eth...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>In <mayangrl-240...@ig152.innovation.com> maya...@metro.net
>(mayangirl) writes:
>>> And was this dancing before mass or during the procession at the
>>> offertory?
>>>
>>
>>Both.
>
>Ohhh....that is not good.
>
>As far as I know, liturgical norms prohibit dancing during the mass
>itself.
How much is locally permitted and how much is not? For instance, female
altar servers are now OK but the only diocese in North America is
Arlington. I went to Mass there last week--it reminded me of why I spent
5 years as a Protestant. Our Cardinal likes liturgical dance and it's
done at many of the Masses at which he officiates. I think it's moving
and I am cheered at the sight of teenagers involved in their faith.
Besides, Psalm 150 says very clearly to "praise Him with timbrel and
dance."
Stephanie Rendino
In article <5fapcs$l...@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com>,
Edward Thorne <eth...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>To do liturgical dance correctly means that it is done before Mass. To
>do it just before the Gospel means that it is being done within mass.
>I believe that that is a no-no, liturgically.
>
>Bishops and priests have no right to change the Mass without
>authorization. The Mass belongs to the people and individual
>celebrants have no right to change it based on their personal whims.
Why do I have the suspicion that this is a no-no because YOU don't like
it? You haven't given us any citations for why it is wrong, you've never
seen it, and have nothing to back it up but your opinions. Our cardinal
likes it and it's a normal part of our formal diocesan life. You don't
like it, don't come here.
Edward Thorne
In <5fcafk$2...@stratus.CAM.ORG> be...@CAM.ORG (Stephanie Rendino)
writes:
>
>In article <5evj1t$l...@dfw-ixnews9.ix.netcom.com>,
>Edward Thorne <eth...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>>In <mayangrl-240...@ig152.innovation.com>
maya...@metro.net
>>(mayangirl) writes:
>>>> And was this dancing before mass or during the procession at the
>>>> offertory?
>>>>
>>>
>>>Both.
>>
>>Ohhh....that is not good.
>>
>>As far as I know, liturgical norms prohibit dancing during the mass
>>itself.
>
>How much is locally permitted and how much is not? For instance,
female
>altar servers are now OK but the only diocese in North America is
>Arlington.
The Bp of Lincoln also prohibits female altar boys.
I have gone to Mass in the Diocese of Richmond, before female altar
boys were authorized. They used them there. I can say that I did not
find it edifying. I can only say 3 cheers to Bp John Keating for not
allowing female altar boys in Arlington, the most unique diocese in the
history of the Catholic Church.
> I went to Mass there last week
Which church did you go to?
--it reminded me of why I spent
>5 years as a Protestant. Our Cardinal likes liturgical dance and it's
>done at many of the Masses at which he officiates.
During Mass or before? There is a big difference.
What diocese is yours?
> I think it's moving
>and I am cheered at the sight of teenagers involved in their faith.
>Besides, Psalm 150 says very clearly to "praise Him with timbrel and
>dance."
>
Fine, but, let's follow the liturgical norms laid down by the church,
which are to be followed by all bishops and priests.
The Mass belongs to all the people, and is not subject to the whims of
any bishop or priest.
Edward Thorne
In <5feh4g$q...@stratus.CAM.ORG> be...@CAM.ORG (Stephanie Rendino)
writes:
>
>In article <5fapcs$l...@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com>,
>Edward Thorne <eth...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>>To do liturgical dance correctly means that it is done before Mass.
To
>>do it just before the Gospel means that it is being done within mass.
>>I believe that that is a no-no, liturgically.
>>
>>Bishops and priests have no right to change the Mass without
>>authorization. The Mass belongs to the people and individual
>>celebrants have no right to change it based on their personal whims.
>
>Why do I have the suspicion that this is a no-no because YOU don't
like
>it?
You are right, Stef, I don't like it --within Mass, but that is not why
it is a no-no. That it is opposed to liturgical norms laid down by the
church is my understanding, but I have no citations to back myself up.
You haven't given us any citations for why it is wrong, you've never
>seen it, and have nothing to back it up but your opinions. Our
cardinal
>likes it and it's a normal part of our formal diocesan life. You
don't
>like it, don't come here.
>
Sigh! And the Church is supposed to be one? And, if I were to want go
to Mass in your diocese as a stranger, you would not take me in?
I think that we see happening in the American church, what Abp Card Law
called 'the dismantling of the rite.' We either have a rite or we have
liturgical bedlam.
Of course, this discussion relates to dance within the Mass, as opposed
to dance before or after.
padr...@aol.com
>>Bishops and priests have no right to change the Mass without
>>authorization. The Mass belongs to the people and individual
>>celebrants have no right to change it based on their personal whims.
>
>Why do I have the suspicion that this is a no-no because YOU don't like
>it? You haven't given us any citations for why it is wrong, you've never
>seen it, and have nothing to back it up but your opinions. Our cardinal
>likes it and it's a normal part of our formal diocesan life. You don't
>like it, don't come here.
"No person, even if he be a priest, may add, remove or change anything in the Liturgy on his own authority." (Second Vatican Council; Constitution of the Sacred Liturgy; nos. 22,3)
"Dancing and Worship
The dance has never been made an integral part of the official worhship of
the Latin Church.
If local churches have accepted the dance, sometimes even in the church
building, that was on the occasion of feasts in order to manifest
sentiments of joy and devotion. But that always took place outside of
liturgical services.
Conciliar decisions have often condemned the religious dance because it
conduces little to worship and because it could degenerate into disorders.
Actually, in favor of dance in the liturgy, an argument could be drawn from
the passage of the Constitution on the Sacred Liturgy, Sacrosanctum
Concilium, in which are given the norms for adaptation of the liturgy to
the character and the traditions of the various peoples:
"In matters which do not affect the faith or the well-being of an entire
community, the Church does not wish, even in the Liturgy, to impose a rigid
uniformity; on the contrary, she respects and fosters the genius and
talents of various races and people. Whatever in their way of life is not
indissolubly bound up with superstition and error, she looks upon with
benevolence and if possible keeps it intact, and sometimes even admits it
into the Liturgy provided it accords with the genuine and authentic
liturgical spirit."[1]
Theoretically, it could be deduced from that passage that certain forms of
dancing and certain dance patterns could be introduced into Catholic
worship.
Nevertheless, two condition could not be prescinded from.
The first: to the extent in which the body is a reflection of the soul,
dancing, with all its manifestations, would have to express sentiments of
faith and adoration in order to become a prayer.
The second condition: just as all the gestures and movements found in the
liturgy are regulated by the competent ecclesiastical authority, so also
dancing as a gestre would have to be under its discipline.
Concretely: there are cultures in which this is possible insofar as dancing
is still reflective of religious values and becomes a clear manifestation
of them. Such is the case of the Ethiopians. In their culture, even today,
there is the religious ritulalized dance, cleary distinct from the martial
dance and from the amorous dance. The ritual dance is performed by priests
and levites before beginning a ceremony and in the open are in front of the
church. The dance accompanies the chanting of psalms during the procession.
When the procession enters the church, then the chanting of the psalms is
carried out with and accompanied by bodily movement.
The same thing is found in the Syriac liturgy by means of chanting of
psalms.
In the Byzantine Liturgy, there is an extremely simplified dance on the
occasion of a wedding when the crowned spouses make a circular revolution
around the lectern together with the celebrant.
Such is the case of the Israelites: in the synagogue their prayer is
accompanied by a continuous movement to recall the precept from tradition:
"When you pray, do so with all your heart, and all your bones." And for
primitive peoples the same observation can be made.
However, the same criterion and judgment cannot be applied in the western
culture.
Here dancing is tied with love, with diversion, with profaneness, with
unbridling of the senses: such dancing, in general, is not pure.
For that reason it cannot be introduced into liturgical celebrations of any
kind whatever: that would be to inject into the liturgy one of the most
desacralized and desacralizing elements; and so it would be equivalent to
creating an atmosphere of profaneness which would easily recall to those
present and to the participants in the celebration worldly places and
situations.
Neither can acceptance be had of the proposal to introduce into the liturgy
the so-called artistic ballet[2] because there would be presentation here
also of a spectacle at which one would assist, while in the liturgy one of
the norms from which one cannot prescind is that of participation.
Therefore, there is a great difference in cultures: what is well receieved
in one culture cannot be taken on by another culture.
The traditional reserve of the seriousness of religious worship, and of the
Latin worship in particular, must never be forgotton.
If the proposal of the religious dance in the West is really to be made
welcome, care will have to be taken that in its regard a place be found
outside of the liturgy, in assembly areas which are not strictly
liturgical. Moreover, the priests must always be excluded from the dance.
We can recall how much was derived from the presence of the Samoans at Rome
for the missionary festival of 1971. At the end of the Mass, they caried
out their dance in St. Peter's square: and all were joyful."
So, it is clear that liturgical dance is to be done outside of the liturgy, and only under certain conditions.
Pax Christi, pat
Stephanie Rendino
In article <5ff3lj$n...@sjx-ixn10.ix.netcom.com>,
Edward Thorne <eth...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>In <5fcafk$2...@stratus.CAM.ORG> be...@CAM.ORG (Stephanie Rendino)
>writes:
>The Bp of Lincoln also prohibits female altar boys.
Female boys is an oxymoron, don't you think? They're altar servers or
acolytes. That's not new usage either.
>I have gone to Mass in the Diocese of Richmond, before female altar
>boys were authorized. They used them there. I can say that I did not
>find it edifying.
Boo to them for flauting the rules, but cheers for at least considering
the idea.
I can only say 3 cheers to Bp John Keating for not
>allowing female altar boys in Arlington, the most unique diocese in the
>history of the Catholic Church.
Oh yeah, sexism is REALLY holy, isn't it? The Vatican says it's okay.
Having the message "you can't serve at the altar because you're a girl"
told me volumes about the status of my sex when I was growing up. There
is now NO excuse for another little girl to feel that she's not good
enough for God, just because she's female. I'm not in Call To Action or
any of those sorts of groups, but John Keating is being a stiff-necked
bigot.
>> I went to Mass there last week
>
>Which church did you go to?
Holy Family in Woodbridge.
>--it reminded me of why I spent
>>5 years as a Protestant. Our Cardinal likes liturgical dance and it's
>>done at many of the Masses at which he officiates.
>
>During Mass or before? There is a big difference.
During. As I said, our Cardinal likes it.
>What diocese is yours?
Archdiocese of Montreal (www.archeveche-mtl.qc.ca/)
>> I think it's moving
>>and I am cheered at the sight of teenagers involved in their faith.
>>Besides, Psalm 150 says very clearly to "praise Him with timbrel and
>>dance."
>>
>Fine, but, let's follow the liturgical norms laid down by the church,
>which are to be followed by all bishops and priests.
You haven't proved to me what the norms are, only that you don't like it.
Then again, it seems to me that you're resistant to anything that gets
young people involved, even if it's not weird.
Edward Thorne
In <5fibum$7...@stratus.CAM.ORG> be...@CAM.ORG (Stephanie Rendino)
writes:
>In article <5ff3lj$n...@sjx-ixn10.ix.netcom.com>,
>Edward Thorne <eth...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>>In <5fcafk$2...@stratus.CAM.ORG> be...@CAM.ORG (Stephanie Rendino)
>>writes:
>
>>The Bp of Lincoln also prohibits female altar boys.
>
>Female boys is an oxymoron, don't you think? They're altar servers or
>acolytes. That's not new usage either.
At this shop we speak English.
Besides, I bet you have trouble calling green writing surfaces in
school classrooms blackboards.
>
>>I have gone to Mass in the Diocese of Richmond, before female altar
>>boys were authorized. They used them there. I can say that I did
not
>>find it edifying.
>
>Boo to them for flauting the rules, but cheers for at least
considering
>the idea.
>
>I can only say 3 cheers to Bp John Keating for not
>>allowing female altar boys in Arlington, the most unique diocese in
the
>>history of the Catholic Church.
>
>Oh yeah, sexism is REALLY holy, isn't it?
Who said it is sexism? Boy, you are slinging around a lot of nouns,
aren't you?
> The Vatican says it's okay.
The Vatican said it is up to each bishop.
>Having the message "you can't serve at the altar because you're a
girl"
>told me volumes about the status of my sex when I was growing up.
Hmmnn ...That never seemed to bother Mother Seton, Mother Cabrini, St
Maria Goretti, St Catherine Laboure', St Theresa of Lisieux, St Theresa
of Avila, St Catherine of Siena, St Clare, St Scholatica, St ...St ....
etc
> There
>is now NO excuse for another little girl to feel that she's not good
>enough for God, just because she's female.
Nobody has ever said that!
What is happening here is an outburst of secular feminism, that wants
to see everything in terms of 'power'.
> I'm not in Call To Action or
>any of those sorts of groups, but John Keating is being a stiff-necked
>bigot.
Hmmnn ....Don't judge lest you be ....[what did Jesus say?]
Careful, he might be the next bishop of Chicago! :-)
>
> >> I went to Mass there last week
>>
>>Which church did you go to?
>
>Holy Family in Woodbridge.
I have never been there. Yet it is only 10 miles from my house.
>
>>--it reminded me of why I spent
>>>5 years as a Protestant. Our Cardinal likes liturgical dance and
it's
>>>done at many of the Masses at which he officiates.
>>
>>During Mass or before? There is a big difference.
>
>During. As I said, our Cardinal likes it.
Then he is violating liturgical norms. He has no right to do that.
>
>>What diocese is yours?
>
>Archdiocese of Montreal (www.archeveche-mtl.qc.ca/)
thnx for the address.
Hmmnn ...the Canadian hierarchy may be going the same way as the Dutch.
>
>>> I think it's moving
>>>and I am cheered at the sight of teenagers involved in their faith.
>>>Besides, Psalm 150 says very clearly to "praise Him with timbrel and
>>>dance."
>>>
>>Fine, but, let's follow the liturgical norms laid down by the church,
>>which are to be followed by all bishops and priests.
Padraic gave a good dissertation on liturgical dance. It may not be
suitable for Westerners because of the amorous and sensuous aspects of
Western dance.
Hence, in the liturgy is a no-no.
And, no, I can't give you any references, but I am sure that you can
check them out.
>
>You haven't proved to me what the norms are, only that you don't like
it.
>Then again, it seems to me that you're resistant to anything that gets
>young people involved, even if it's not weird.
Boy o boy, you are certainly judgemental, aren't you?
"Sacrifice or oblation you wished not, but ears open to obedience you
gave me."
Stephanie Rendino
In article <5fj201$f...@sjx-ixn8.ix.netcom.com>,
Edward Thorne <eth...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>In <5fibum$7...@stratus.CAM.ORG> be...@CAM.ORG (Stephanie Rendino)
>>>The Bp of Lincoln also prohibits female altar boys.
>>
>>Female boys is an oxymoron, don't you think? They're altar servers or
>>acolytes. That's not new usage either.
>
>At this shop we speak English.
Dans ce magasin-la, nous parlons francais.
>Besides, I bet you have trouble calling green writing surfaces in
>school classrooms blackboards.
??
>>Oh yeah, sexism is REALLY holy, isn't it?
>
>Who said it is sexism? Boy, you are slinging around a lot of nouns,
>aren't you?
Sorry you don't know the same words I do, I guess.
>> The Vatican says it's okay.
>
>The Vatican said it is up to each bishop.
>
>>Having the message "you can't serve at the altar because you're a
>girl"
>>told me volumes about the status of my sex when I was growing up.
>
>Hmmnn ...That never seemed to bother Mother Seton, Mother Cabrini, St
>Maria Goretti, St Catherine Laboure', St Theresa of Lisieux, St Theresa
>of Avila, St Catherine of Siena, St Clare, St Scholatica, St ...St ....
All of whom died a long time ago before equal rites for anybody. And
don't mention that Goretti girl to me. I know a lot of incest survivors
for whom she isn't exactly an inspiration. "She was so good and holy
because she let her rapist KILL her, ergo, you're a nasty little
fornicator because you didn't!"
>>is now NO excuse for another little girl to feel that she's not good
>>enough for God, just because she's female.
>
>Nobody has ever said that!
I wish you could walk a mile in my shoes, Ed. Really I do.
>What is happening here is an outburst of secular feminism, that wants
>to see everything in terms of 'power'.
Did I mention power? No, I did not.
>> I'm not in Call To Action or
>>any of those sorts of groups, but John Keating is being a stiff-necked
>>bigot.
>
>Hmmnn ....Don't judge lest you be ....[what did Jesus say?]
I calls 'em as I sees 'em.
>Careful, he might be the next bishop of Chicago! :-)
So? I don't live in Chicago.
>> >> I went to Mass there last week
>>>
>>>Which church did you go to?
>>
>>Holy Family in Woodbridge.
>
>I have never been there. Yet it is only 10 miles from my house.
>>
>>>--it reminded me of why I spent
>>>>5 years as a Protestant. Our Cardinal likes liturgical dance and
>it's
>>>>done at many of the Masses at which he officiates.
>>>
>>>During Mass or before? There is a big difference.
>>
>>During. As I said, our Cardinal likes it.
>
>Then he is violating liturgical norms. He has no right to do that.
>>
>>>What diocese is yours?
>>
>>Archdiocese of Montreal (www.archeveche-mtl.qc.ca/)
>
>thnx for the address.
>
>Hmmnn ...the Canadian hierarchy may be going the same way as the Dutch.
What way is the Dutch hierarchy going? The Archbishop of Toronto,
Aloysius Ambrozic, is very, very conservative. He's not a cardinal
though, because John Paul II and he don't like each other much. Yet JP2
liked Turcotte enough to make him a cardinal.
>>>> I think it's moving
>>>>and I am cheered at the sight of teenagers involved in their faith.
>>>>Besides, Psalm 150 says very clearly to "praise Him with timbrel and
>>>>dance."
>>>>
>>>Fine, but, let's follow the liturgical norms laid down by the church,
>>>which are to be followed by all bishops and priests.
>
>Padraic gave a good dissertation on liturgical dance. It may not be
>suitable for Westerners because of the amorous and sensuous aspects of
>Western dance.
>
>Hence, in the liturgy is a no-no.
Amourous? Sensuous? It's not like they're stripping up there for crying
out loud!
>And, no, I can't give you any references, but I am sure that you can
>check them out.
>>
>>You haven't proved to me what the norms are, only that you don't like
>it.
>>Then again, it seems to me that you're resistant to anything that gets
>>young people involved, even if it's not weird.
>
>Boy o boy, you are certainly judgemental, aren't you?
I calls 'em as I sees 'em, like I said.
Edward Thorne
In <5fl75m$6...@stratus.CAM.ORG> be...@CAM.ORG (Stephanie Rendino)
writes:
>In article <5fj201$f...@sjx-ixn8.ix.netcom.com>,
>Edward Thorne <eth...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>>In <5fibum$7...@stratus.CAM.ORG> be...@CAM.ORG (Stephanie Rendino)
>
>>At this shop we speak English.
>
>Dans ce magasin-la, nous parlons francais.
>
Kochira no mise de wa, Nihongo ga hanasimasu.
>>Besides, I bet you have trouble calling green writing surfaces in
>>school classrooms blackboards.
>
>??
Have you never seen a green blackboard? Lots of classrooms have them.
[SNIP]
>>Hmmnn ...That never seemed to bother Mother Seton, Mother Cabrini, St
>>Maria Goretti, St Catherine Laboure', St Theresa of Lisieux, St
Theresa
>>of Avila, St Catherine of Siena, St Clare, St Scholatica, St ...St
....
>
>All of whom died a long time ago before equal rites for anybody. And
>don't mention that Goretti girl to me. I know a lot of incest
survivors
>for whom she isn't exactly an inspiration.
Incest? Was her rapist a relative?
> "She was so good and holy
>because she let her rapist KILL her,
> ergo, you're a nasty little
>fornicator because you didn't!"
Do find that amusing?
>
>>>is now NO excuse for another little girl to feel that she's not good
>>>enough for God, just because she's female.
>>
>>Nobody has ever said that!
>
>I wish you could walk a mile in my shoes, Ed. Really I do.
What? Shall I become a transvestite?
>
>>What is happening here is an outburst of secular feminism, that wants
>>to see everything in terms of 'power'.
>
>Did I mention power? No, I did not.
No, you didn't, but that is what you are reaching for.
[SNIP]
>
>>Careful, he might be the next bishop of Chicago! :-)
>
>So? I don't live in Chicago.
>
>>> >> I went to Mass there last week
>>>>
>>>>Which church did you go to?
>>>
>>>Holy Family in Woodbridge.
>>
>>I have never been there. Yet it is only 10 miles from my house.
>>>
>>>>--it reminded me of why I spent
>>>>>5 years as a Protestant. Our Cardinal likes liturgical dance and
>>it's
>>>>>done at many of the Masses at which he officiates.
>>>>
>>>>During Mass or before? There is a big difference.
>>>
>>>During. As I said, our Cardinal likes it.
>>
>>Then he is violating liturgical norms. He has no right to do that.
>>>
>>>>What diocese is yours?
>>>
>>>Archdiocese of Montreal (www.archeveche-mtl.qc.ca/)
>>
>>thnx for the address.
>>
>>Hmmnn ...the Canadian hierarchy may be going the same way as the
Dutch.
>
>What way is the Dutch hierarchy going?
Down, very down, and very fast. They are conforming quite closely to
the leaven of the scribes and pharisees.
> The Archbishop of Toronto,
>Aloysius Ambrozic, is very, very conservative.
Good for him.
He's not a cardinal
>though, because John Paul II and he don't like each other much.
Well, why not? They are both Slavs.
Besides, JP II should be nice to those conservatives, there aren't very
much of them around.
The one guy, I heard, that JP II picked for Chicago turned it down. So
much for answering the call of duty, eh?
Yet JP2
>liked Turcotte enough to make him a cardinal.
Even Eisenhower regretted his appointment of Earl Warren to the Supreme
Court.
[SNIP]
>Amourous? Sensuous? It's not like they're stripping up there for
crying
>out loud!
Well, you know that dance can be very amorous and sensuous --fully
clothed!
>I calls 'em as I sees 'em, like I said.
>
>
"Days of penance have come to us that we may redeem our sins and save
Robert F Underhill
Stephanie Rendino (be...@CAM.ORG) wrote:
: In article <5fj201$f...@sjx-ixn8.ix.netcom.com>,
: Edward Thorne <eth...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
: >In <5fibum$7...@stratus.CAM.ORG> be...@CAM.ORG (Stephanie Rendino)
: >>>The Bp of Lincoln also prohibits female altar boys.
: >>
: >>Female boys is an oxymoron, don't you think? They're altar servers or
: >>acolytes. That's not new usage either.
Is "oxymoron" what you meant to say? And acolytes and altar servers are
two entirely different things.
: >
: >At this shop we speak English.
: Dans ce magasin-la, nous parlons francais.
: >Besides, I bet you have trouble calling green writing surfaces in
: >school classrooms blackboards.
: ??
: >>Oh yeah, sexism is REALLY holy, isn't it?
: >
: >Who said it is sexism? Boy, you are slinging around a lot of nouns,
: >aren't you?
: Sorry you don't know the same words I do, I guess.
: >> The Vatican says it's okay.
: >
: >The Vatican said it is up to each bishop.
: >
: >>Having the message "you can't serve at the altar because you're a
: >girl"
: >>told me volumes about the status of my sex when I was growing up.
: >
: >Hmmnn ...That never seemed to bother Mother Seton, Mother Cabrini, St
: >Maria Goretti, St Catherine Laboure', St Theresa of Lisieux, St Theresa
: >of Avila, St Catherine of Siena, St Clare, St Scholatica, St ...St ....
: All of whom died a long time ago before equal rites for anybody. And
: don't mention that Goretti girl to me. I know a lot of incest survivors
: for whom she isn't exactly an inspiration. "She was so good and holy
: because she let her rapist KILL her, ergo, you're a nasty little
: fornicator because you didn't!"
:
: >>is now NO excuse for another little girl to feel that she's not good
: >>enough for God, just because she's female.
: >
: >Nobody has ever said that!
: I wish you could walk a mile in my shoes, Ed. Really I do.
: >What is happening here is an outburst of secular feminism, that wants
: >to see everything in terms of 'power'.
: Did I mention power? No, I did not.
: >> I'm not in Call To Action or
: >>any of those sorts of groups, but John Keating is being a stiff-necked
: >>bigot.
: >
: >Hmmnn ....Don't judge lest you be ....[what did Jesus say?]
: I calls 'em as I sees 'em.
: >Careful, he might be the next bishop of Chicago! :-)
: So? I don't live in Chicago.
: >> >> I went to Mass there last week
: >>>
: >>>Which church did you go to?
: >>
: >>Holy Family in Woodbridge.
: >
: >I have never been there. Yet it is only 10 miles from my house.
: >>
: >>>--it reminded me of why I spent
: >>>>5 years as a Protestant. Our Cardinal likes liturgical dance and
: >it's
: >>>>done at many of the Masses at which he officiates.
: >>>
: >>>During Mass or before? There is a big difference.
: >>
: >>During. As I said, our Cardinal likes it.
: >
: >Then he is violating liturgical norms. He has no right to do that.
: >>
: >>>What diocese is yours?
: >>
: >>Archdiocese of Montreal (www.archeveche-mtl.qc.ca/)
: >
: >thnx for the address.
: >
: >Hmmnn ...the Canadian hierarchy may be going the same way as the Dutch.
: What way is the Dutch hierarchy going? The Archbishop of Toronto,
: Aloysius Ambrozic, is very, very conservative. He's not a cardinal
: though, because John Paul II and he don't like each other much. Yet JP2
: liked Turcotte enough to make him a cardinal.
: >>>> I think it's moving
: >>>>and I am cheered at the sight of teenagers involved in their faith.
: >>>>Besides, Psalm 150 says very clearly to "praise Him with timbrel and
: >>>>dance."
: >>>>
: >>>Fine, but, let's follow the liturgical norms laid down by the church,
: >>>which are to be followed by all bishops and priests.
: >
: >Padraic gave a good dissertation on liturgical dance. It may not be
: >suitable for Westerners because of the amorous and sensuous aspects of
: >Western dance.
: >
: >Hence, in the liturgy is a no-no.
: Amourous? Sensuous? It's not like they're stripping up there for crying
: out loud!
: >And, no, I can't give you any references, but I am sure that you can
: >check them out.
: >>
: >>You haven't proved to me what the norms are, only that you don't like
: >it.
: >>Then again, it seems to me that you're resistant to anything that gets
: >>young people involved, even if it's not weird.
: >
: >Boy o boy, you are certainly judgemental, aren't you?
: I calls 'em as I sees 'em, like I said.
--